EXCLUSIVE: ‘Running Their Mouth’ or Seditious Conspiracy? FBI Transcript Shows What Oath Keeper on Trial Told Agents

Members of the Oath Keepers move up the east steps of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, flanked by unidentified "suspicious actors." Attorney Brad Geyer/Screenshot via The Epoch Times

When he surrendered his phone to FBI agents in May 2021, Oath Keepers founder Elmer Stewart Rhodes III warned them they would see instances of “guys running their mouth” in chat groups and a group of Oath Keepers who “went rogue” on Jan. 6, 2021, according to a transcript of Rhodes’s FBI interview obtained by The Epoch Times.

Two FBI agents interviewed Rhodes and Oath Keepers general counsel Kellye SoRelle in Texas on May 3, 2021. In the wide-ranging discussion obtained by The Epoch Times (read Part 1 here), Rhodes cautioned the agents not to read too much into bluster by some of his members that would be evident in phone content.

“I mean, people run their mouth,” Rhodes said. “Oh yeah, and they’ll say stupid [expletive] they shouldn’t say. Like, oh, you know, [expletive] is a friggin’ commie, and someone ought to go and blah, blah, blah. But they’re not going to do anything. They’re just running their mouth.”

When they had access to Rhodes’s phone, agents asked about the many chat sessions hosted by Rhodes and various Oath Keepers on the encrypted phone application called “Signal.” Rhodes said, “I don’t give a [expletive] what you see in my phone, I just don’t want it getting out in the media.”

While looking through the Signal chats, one of the FBI agents remarked, “I was going to say, there’s a billion threads in here.”

Rhodes said he and the Oath Keepers used the Signal app to keep Antifa out of their communications, not to hide something nefarious from the government.

“I always told my guys, we’re not hiding [expletive] from the government. Don’t even worry about that.”

Stewart Rhodes, founder of the Oath Keepers, appears on a screen during a House Select Committee hearing to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the US Capitol, in the Cannon House Office Building on Capitol Hill in Washington on June 9, 2022. Brendan Smialowski/AFP via Getty Images

Prosecutors combed through thousands of chat messages during the investigation that led to the indictment of Rhodes and 10 other defendants on Jan. 12, 2022. They were charged with seditious conspiracy to prevent or hamper—by force—the counting of Electoral College votes and the “peaceful transfer of power” between President Donald Trump and President-elect Joe Biden.

Rhodes and four co-defendants will stand trial in the U.S. District Court in Washington starting Sept. 27. Other charges leveled in the 48-page, 17-count indictment (pdf) include conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstructing an official proceeding, destruction of government property, civil disorder, and other counts.

The bottom line, Rhodes told agents, is the Oath Keepers had no plan to go into or attack the Capitol.

“But, no, we’ve got no [expletive]—we had no plans. We’ve got no plans now,” Rhodes said. “My only plan right now is my main push is to get people to take care of the local communities, get strong locally, and then purge out the weenies in the Republican Party. That’s our focus. The GOP is full of RINOs.”

No Zello on Jan. 6

Rhodes said he and his top staff did not use the push-to-talk application “Zello” on Jan. 6, although he said they used it as a backup communications medium on other operations.

He said he had no contact or coordination with co-defendant Jessica Watkins, whom prosecutors contend is heard on a recording of a public Zello broadcast detailing her plans to enter the Capitol.

Sections of that Zello broadcast were ruled inadmissible by U.S. District Judge Amit Mehta. Those included comments by a user nicknamed “1% Watchdog,” whose profanity-laced narrative encouraged protesters to enter the Capitol and make citizen arrests of allegedly treasonous politicians.

Oath Keepers defendant Jessica Watkins (front left) moves down the steps of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. Prosecutors allege Watkins used a phone app called Zello to discuss her plans to go into the Capitol. The Real Story of Jan. 6/Epoch TV

Rhodes said he was told about the Zello broadcast from an Illinois Oath Keepers member. One of the FBI agents said a number of people were convinced “1% Watchdog” was actually Rhodes.

“You don’t know how many people have come and told me, that was Stewart that was telling them to do all that,” the agent said. “And I was like, ‘I talked to Stewart (indiscernible) times. I don’t think so.’”

Rhodes replied: “Well, it’s not me,” a conclusion prosecutors also reached.

“What got them in trouble was their mouth,” he said. “You know, making stupid, boisterous statements.”

Carolina Going Rogue

Rhodes disavowed anything done or said that day by Oath Keepers from North Carolina, who announced on Dec. 31, 2020, that they were separating from the national Oath Keepers. He stressed the North Carolina contingent was not aware of his security plans for Jan. 6.

“‘When we go to D.C., we want nothing to do with national, but we’re doing our own [expletive] thing,’” Rhodes quoted the announcement as saying.

“They went rogue,” he said. “So they did their own [expletive].”

Rhodes traced the trouble back to a November protest in Washington, when a North Carolina leader “didn’t feel comfortable being unarmed in D.C. going up against Antifa.”

The man pulled his Oath Keepers and withdrew from the security operation escorting people from the rallies, Rhodes said. The decision left the man with “egg on his face” in front of his men, he said.

“Well, the guys were upset. They were going there to protect people,” Rhodes said. “They wanna work the mission. And he got embarrassed and lost face. And after that, he turned on me.”

Several Oath Keepers listen to a speech prior to President Donald Trump's presentation at the Ellipse on Jan. 6, 2021. U.S. District Court/Screenshot via The Epoch Times

Rhodes partly blamed the breakdown in Oath Keepers communication on the North Carolina group, which caused confusion by running its own operation.

“Now I got this [expletive] inserting himself in my chain of command, talking to my guys and doing side chats without my knowledge,” Rhodes said.

“But you go find the side chat they had. They’re in there texting each other back and forth,” he said. “They had an intel team and everything else, you know, sending information to them. They had their own—like they’re running their own (indiscernible) without us being involved at all. They cut us out.”

North Carolina Oath Keepers leader Doug Smith ripped the Oath Keepers national organization shortly after Jan. 6.

“We had not been happy with nationals and the way they were going since November,” Smith told a local newspaper in Whiteville, N.C. “In fact, we had stopped communicating with national and [began] calling ourselves ‘North Carolina Oath Keepers.’ ”

5 Informants Used by Prosecution

In a recent court filing, federal prosecutors revealed for the first time that they used five confidential informants before, during, and after January 6 to gather evidence for the case. They sought a protective order to prevent defense attorneys from learning too much about the informants.

Defense attorneys strongly objected, telling Judge Mehta they have a right to full information about the prosecution’s use of informants, especially if they want to impeach the quality of the investigation during cross-examination, or when the defense cases are tried.

The identities of the informants have not been disclosed. Only one is expected to testify during the trial. Defense attorneys said prosecutors failed to disclose that the informants supplied no evidence of guilt against the five defendants, a fact that itself is exculpatory evidence.

Rhodes cited two incidents on Jan. 6 where Oath Keepers provided timely and valuable help to police in the Capitol.

The first was in the Small House Rotunda, where furious protesters had squared off against a U.S. Capitol Police officer in a heated shouting match.

“You could tell he was extremely, you know, alarmed,” Rhodes said. “And he was basically saying, ‘I’m going to take as many of you [expletives] with me if you come for my rifle,’ which I can understand, you know.

An Oath Keepers member gets in between a protester and a Capitol Police officer during a tense exchange in the Small House Rotunda on Jan. 6, 2021. Stephen Horn/Screenshot via The Epoch Times

“So they got in between that cop and the Trump supporters and calmed things down and de-escalated the situation,” he said. “And protected him.”

SoRelle described another situation where police asked the Oath Keepers to guard a broken window to prevent more protesters from entering the Capitol.

“That kind of cuts against, you know, they were there to harm anybody (indiscernible) our guys,” Rhodes said. “If anybody would be—if I ever caught an Oath Keeper attacking a law enforcement officer, they'd be gone. I would disavow them in a heartbeat.”

Rhodes also spoke about the so-called military stack formation, which prosecutors later said was used by Oath Keepers to reach the Columbus Doors on the east side of the Capitol. Rhodes said putting a hand on the shoulder of the man in front of you is not a military formation.

The Oath Keepers used the maneuver at a rally in Atlanta where Stop the Steal founder Ali Alexander was speaking. When Alexander waded out into the crowd, the Oath Keepers used the hand-on-shoulder arrangement in order to stay together in the crowd.

“Everyone focused on that, like, ‘Oh, look at this. It’s a military formation and, you know, spearhead,” Rhodes said. “It’s just bunk. That’s what happens when [expletive] reporters start—and lawyers that don’t know what they’re talking about just start—‘Oh, it’s a military formation.’ It’s [expletive] retarded.”

Roving Packs of Police, Video Crews

SoRelle said she and Rhodes met a photojournalist who described groups of riot police trailed by video crews and photographers. The “pack” would come and go from the Capitol almost on cue, she said.

“Then you will have this pack that comes in and they'll just start firing off everything,” SoRelle said. “So you’ve got a peaceful crowd that they walk in. Cops will kind of just stand there and these guys go to town on the crowd.

“So when you see the explosion between the Trump supporters and that group, it’s because there was a set-off, like there was a tip-off to kind of create a scene and then everything goes back to normal when they leave,” SoRelle said.

Police attack two protesters on the west side of the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, in this scene from the EpochTV documentary, "The Real Story of Jan. 6." Steve Baker/EpochTV

She said FBI agents in El Paso, Texas, interviewed the photographer. “Go to El Paso,” she said. “Ask for the videos.”

“He starts following them around and they seem to be, like, roving,” SoRelle said. “And then the riot cops will come out of a door somewhere and do a staged, like, showdown, and then they‘ll take off to go to another location. Then the cops will come in from the side and they’ll start getting their shots. They’re called the money shots. They’re literally that orchestrated.”

Rhodes said he believes the media might have done such a thing. He didn’t seem as sure about the police.

“She’s more conspiratorial than I,” Rhodes said. “I mean they’re never going to show old ladies, you know, singing the National Anthem. They’re going to show guys (indiscernible) with the cops. They’re biased as [expletive].”

No Pact with Proud Boys

Rhodes said the Oath Keepers have never had any pact or working relationship with the Proud Boys, another group targeted by federal prosecutors for allegedly conspiring to attack the Capitol.

“We don’t do that,” he said. “We don’t do alliances with other groups.”

A Jan. 5 late-afternoon “meeting” with former Proud Boys chairman Enrique Tarrio in a D.C. parking garage was blown totally out of proportion, Rhodes said.

“Yeah, it wasn’t like I was meeting him for any, you know, clandestine meeting,” Rhodes said. “I said, ‘Hello.’ I said, ‘Hey, man, I’m glad you got out,’ because he had gotten arrested the night before. That’s all I said, is, ‘How you doing?'”

Enrique Tarrio, Chairman of the Proud Boys, and Stewart Rhodes, founder of the Oath Keepers, in a garage in Washington, in a still image taken from a Jan. 5, 2021, video. Saboteur Media/Handout via Reuters

Prosecutors described the event as a 30-minute meeting during which the word “Capitol” was heard on video. The January 6 Select Committee used a still image from the parking garage in one of its public hearings.

Rhodes has said he went to the parking garage as part of SoRelle’s three-man security detail. SoRelle had received death threats due to her work to expose vote fraud in Michigan during and after the 2020 presidential election.

SoRelle was asked to meet with Tarrio by the leader of Latinos for Trump, to make sure Tarrio had legal representation in his D.C. criminal case for burning a Black Lives Matter banner on Dec. 12, 2020.

Video of the meeting showed Rhodes and Tarrio shaking hands and nodding, then Rhodes stepped back from the group. The encounter took less than 10 seconds.

Rhodes told the agents that the brief handshake was the extent of his entire relationship with the Proud Boys.

“And we did not work with them in any of the things we’ve done in D.C.,” Rhodes said.