Interview with Dan Boyle
Senator Dan Boyle’s Green Party has been in government during one of the most difficult times in Irish history. He admits they have made mistakes, but hopes the public will view their actions in government as sincere. Epoch Times reporter Gerald O'Connor sat down with Senator Boyle to ask him about his experiences in government over the last two years, and the Green Party’s preparations for the 2011 election.
The Epoch Times: What is your family political background, and how did you get started in politics?
Dan Boyle: My own family background, from my mother’s and father’s point of view, would have been Fianna Fail. I was born in the US because my parents were immigrants; my father from Donegal and my mother from Cork. My father would have had involvement with the Democratic Party in Chicago, the Richard Daly Machine. There was always an involvement in politics, but when I was growing up I would have reacted against Fianna Fail in particular. I looked for a political home: I saw Fianna Gael as being more or less the same thing as Fianna Fail; I saw Labour as being there to make up the numbers rather than having a clearly defined identity, and I think the Workers Party was something I saw as being too radical for me. I was very impressed with the Green Party in Germany, so I actively sought out the Green Party in Ireland, which was very small at the time - this was 1988 - and after a series of letters I joined the Party.
ET: How many public representatives did it have at that stage?
DB: We had one town councillor in Killarney.
ET: What was your profession at the time?
DB: My background is in community social work. I was involved in youth work; I was involved in community work with Muintir na Tire and voluntarily in my own community, and I would have worked with particular schools, schools of referrals and the like, and I ended up (before I was elected to the Dail) working through FAS as a community employment supervisor in arts schemes and disability work.
ET: Did you have any political role models before you became a full-time politician?
DB: I would have been very taken with Noel Browne’s autobiography. I think he would have been a very difficult person. I never got to meet him, but it’s a fascinating book. He is someone who has shown that you can achieve in politics by not being mainstream.
ET: During the financial crash in the US, high profile people were put behind bars for crimes related to the financial crash. However, two years into the crisis nobody has been held to account in Ireland. Is it fair to say that the US is a more mature democracy that Ireland?
Db: It is; I suppose the difference is we have a common law system and they don’t, but it is far too frustrating.
ET: What is the main difference between the common law system in Ireland and the system in the US?
DB: I suppose the presumption of innocence is rated more highly in our system, because of things like the Magna Carter, I would imagine. The delay hasn’t been a political delay; we wouldn’t stand over anything like that. It has been the Director of Corporate Enforcement; it has been the Garda investigations; and they are the people who have the responsibility for making these actions.
ET: Do you think it is necessary to change the system? Do you think the system we have is working, or does it need reform?
DB: I am obviously of a mindset that I want things to change. But I suppose the experience of government is how frustrating it is to bring change about. Most people identify it as political obstacles; it is not necessarily so. It can often be administrative blockages, and I think an attitudinal difficulty: That things are done the way they have always been done, and they shouldn’t be changed.
ET: What did you hope to achieve before you entered politics? What were your goals beforehand?
DB: I suppose I would have had a feeling that things weren’t right; things needed changing, and a sense of social injustice. Being younger and the way the system was perpetrated along those injustices ... I wanted to follow a particular path where I could work to have some of those changed. Some change with economic improvements: The Ireland of today is a lot different to the Ireland I grew up in, and a lot of the economic indicators in the 80s were far worse that what we are dealing with today. I think the economic boost we had over the last 10 years kind of dulled their senses to the need for more systemic changes in our society which still need to be resolved.
ET: Many people will be entering this election who may have not been an elected representative before. After being in power, how did your view of the Irish system change?
DB: I suppose I’m more convinced than ever about the need for change. I’m happy that we’ve brought about some change, particularly in the regulation area which is shown to be so deficient. We have identified people from outside both the system and from outside the jurisdictions that can help bring about better standards. The main problems in Irish administration are an acceptance of things being good enough as they are, an unwillingness to change, and there is also a failure to take accountability: It’s always somebody else’s fault!
ET: Would you recommend this career to somebody who wants to make a difference in society? Is this a good path to take?
DB: I would be slow enough to recommend my life to anyone else. I would encourage people to be politically involved, to join a political party. To put themselves up for office, to try to influence policy positions.
ET: Is running for office out of reach of the ordinary citizen? Is it too expensive?
DB: It is more difficult, but we have certainly done it. I have never had expensive election campaigns, and I have never had access to the type of funding that other people have in elections, and we are utterly opposed to corporate donations, and we are hoping to have them outlawed by the time we leave government. But I think you can spend a lot of money and achieve little. The important thing is being available, to know that there is no distinction between the public and the private, and you have to make a lot of time available to meet the people, be with people, respond to people.
ET: Initially, when you joined the Green Party, what were their ideals that you were attracted to?
DB: I think there are a number of principles. One is that it has a consensual way of making decisions; it is more broad-based, more democratic than other political parties.
ET: Could you give me an example of that? Would you like to elaborate a little bit about the decision making process, and about how much input a Green Party member would have in decisions that are made by that party?
DB: I would argue: quite a lot. We have a structure - from local group to national council to our national convention - that allows people to do that, and we hold special conventions for making decisions that are important, not only in relation to what the party should do but what the party in government should do, and I suppose trying to inform a national debate for things like NAMA. I think we do it better than other political parties.
ET: Do you think the Green Party at the moment is undergoing an identity crisis? Most political parties are now championing green issues, so green issues as an identity doesn’t differentiate you for voters as much as before.
DB: I think it is difficult being a party in government, but we knew that when we went into government. I would argue that no other party can be green, in that you have to be consistent and coherent in expressing green policies in general. The right can’t do it because it means giving up vested interests. The left can’t do it because they believe in approaching society (in a way) that is far too regimented and regulated; that isn’t green either.
ET: What’s your proudest moment of being a member of the Green Party?
DB: On a personal basis, I was very proud of what we achieved with the civil partnership legislation.
ET: What was the most difficult moment as a Party: A decision maybe you had to make that wasn’t in line with the goals of the Green Party, where you had to compromise?
DB: I think we’re in the middle of that. The fact that you have to make decisions about what money is available and how high you apply social welfare payments is very difficult for us. I can’t see any other combination of parties coming to an alternative decision, because the money isn’t there at the moment.
ET: Do you know how many candidates you will be putting forward in the upcoming election?
DB: We will be contesting every constituency. We want to maximise our national goal.
ET: How many seats do you think you will win?
DB: It’s hard to say: There are nine constituencies we have identified, and that’s where our attention will be on.
ET: Do you plan on running yourself?
DB: I do.
ET: I would interact occasionally with you through Facebook. I see on your Facebook page you are confronted with a lot of negativity, and some of the comments made appear to me to be insincere. How hard is that to cope with?
DB: I suppose it’s a learning experience. You cope as you go along. I’m slow enough to block or delete anything. I am quite happy and comfortable in leaving a lot of negative comments both on my Facebook and Twitter pages. I don’t believe it’s fully representative in the sense that people who think positively of you are less inclined to delete comments along those lines, but I still think it’s a developing medium and I look forward to seeing how it might be used in the elections.
ET: Do you find it’s a useful tool to engage with the electorate?
DB: I think it is useful and I think it has potential. It obviously has negative connotations as well, but I think its future is going to be more positive than negative.
ET: How difficult a decision was it to go into government with Fianna Fail?
DB: It was difficult. […] We went out of our way to make sure it was something we could consider, that it was something that had something of advantage to us being in government. We got sanctioned for that by our members.
ET: When you got sanctioned for that, was it just a majority or a certain percentage?
DB: Two thirds.
ET: For members who got to vote on decisions like that, what’s the process?
DB: There’s a probationary period of six months.
ET: During the process of deciding the plan for government, you were negotiating with one of the most experienced political parties in the country. What did you learn during the negotiation process, and if you had the opportunity to go into government or to negotiate a plan for government in a few months, how would you approach it differently?
DB: I think we had an opportunity when we had to review the programme for government last year, so first of all you should have control of the script, which we didn’t have the first time around, and secondly there are key positions in government you should make a pitch for; either choosing the person involved or having someone selected that you think is best able to work with you.
ET: After over three years in government, how do you think the public perceives the Green Party?
DB: Well, we’re three and a half years in government and we’re dealing with negative connotations. For the first two years I think it was relatively positive. Our opinion poll rating is about 3%. We were put at 4.7% in the general election so it’s not irredeemable, but I think the damage has been done in terms of the secondary votes, the transfers. So we need to convince people in the next election that we can be part of any alternative government, and we would be useful to such a government because of the experience we have gained.
ET: Do you have anyone you would prefer as partners or anyone you would prefer not to be in government with?
DB: I don’t think we have reached that stage yet, but it’s quite obvious that there is likely to be a change in government and there are question marks about the compatibility of the opposition parties, and we are a possible bridge between lots of those compatibilities that exist out there. We respect the votes of the Irish people, and who knows what they are going to vote on the day.
ET: How do you think the Green Party’s contribution to the events of the last couple of years will be viewed in the future?
DB: I think there will be a concentration on the mistakes that have been made, and there have been mistakes made. I don’t think there will be an identification with us with the problems that brought us to where we are. I’m hoping that there will be a recognition of the sincerity in which we have tried to approach these challenges. I suppose the negative connotations might be that history might judge us to be naïve.
ET: What do you think the major mistakes were?
DB: It wasn’t the bank guarantee itself; it was the scale of the bank guarantee both in terms of the type of debtors, creditors it was covering and the institutions that brought us to a difficult situation. I also have the belief though, because of the policy decisions that were made between 2002 and 2007: We would have reached this point anyway. The contradictions would have led us here because of the free and easy use of money and the lack of regulation.
ET: If, after the next election, you are sitting in the opposition benches, has your time in government changed how you would approach that?
DB: Well, yes, because you have better knowledge of how the civil service works, you have a better idea as to what influence the government can play in these situations.
ET: Do you have an opinion on how the free press has contributed to the situation the country is currently in?
DB: Social media is a good counter point, but I must admit I have become weary, maybe because of being the butt of constant criticism. The mainstream media in Ireland feeds off itself, and I think there has been a blurring of the distinction between honest journalism and commentary, and a lot of what has been presented as journalism has been opinion and personalised opinion.
ET: How did it feel personally that you were in government when the IMF assistance was sought?
DB: It is very difficult; it is a humiliation; it is a political defeat. I think circumstances have worked against us. We had a far worse debt problem in the 80s that we dealt with on our own, but now we are members of the euro, and the euro itself is in crisis and there are parallel problems with Portugal, Spain, and Italy. We have been made an example of. It could be just like we had to revalue in the early 90s: that in accepting this deal, we might be in a better position to sort ourselves out now. There weren’t options; it leads to a degree of certainty and there is a degree of understanding as well among opposition parties that there is a framework that has to be worked within.
ET: Do you think that the current four year plan will be followed through to its conclusion, or do you foresee other problems in the meantime?
DB: Actually, I see an opportunity to get out of it. If elements of the plan start working, and the bond spread on international markets become lower than 5.8, there is no point in seeing through the rest of the plan, and we can go back to the money markets.
ET: A quote from John Gormley recently made headlines, because it compared being in government to being in an asylum! What is your opinion on this?
DB: Well that was reactionary; that was a phrase thrown across to him. I think someone in Labour shouted that lunatics seem to have taken over the asylum, so John said it wasn’t a bad analogy to talk about being in an asylum.
ET: So there have been difficult decisions to make in government, but perhaps that one quote was taken out of context.
DB: Yes. Then we had a serious political debate about mental health issues. We would argue that our approach to mental health issues is more progressive than any other party.
ET: In the news today there was talk that the election will now be put back to March so that the Green Party can get more of its legislation brought through. Is that accurate?
DB: I think that’s a misrepresentation. We will leave government once the Finance Bill is passed, but that time also offers an opportunity for Green Party legislation to be passed.
ET: When is looking like a likely date for the election?
DB: Possibly February.
ET: You regularly take public transport, which puts you in very close contact with the public. What is the reaction you have received from the general public as you interact with them on a daily basis?
DB: You get angry people. People are frustrated and disappointed, but most people are reasonable and they recognise your personal willingness to engage and do the best you can.
ET: So at no point was there a level of hostility that would make you think of using a different form of transport that would remove you from that hostility? People have reacted in a fair way - would you say that’s true?
DB: My experience has been so. When you’re in your own area, and next June I will have been in public office for 20 years, people know me; they know who I am and they deal with me accordingly.
ET: Do you have any final message for the electorate in Cork?
DB: I am looking forward to the election. I always enjoy election campaigns; I know this one will be more difficult than most but I think it is going to be one of the most important elections we have ever had as a country and I would encourage people, whatever their opinion of the government, to engage and to offer perspectives as to how we can make this a better country, because we need that conversation more than ever.
ET: Senator Dan Boyle, thank you.
